The 73-year old political pundit had also been in Uganda’s leading party, National Resistance Movement (NRM) back in 1980s when he had joined others to liberate Uganda from former dictatorial regime.
He was the Secretary General of RPF-Inkotanyi between 1987-1989, Commissioner in Charge of Political Mass Mobilization from 1989-1991, and Political coordinator 1991-1993. He also served in parliament’s chamber of Deputies between 2000 and 2003 before becoming Ombudsman from 2003 to 2012 when he joined the senate.
Last week IGIHE visited him at his home in Kicukiro District and talked about different issues including political matters and foreign affairs among others. Excerpts below,
QN: When did you first get interested and joined politics?
A: Sometimes you enter politics without any assignment. I remember when I was in secondary school in Uganda, in a refuge camp, there were political turmoils which I could follow especially on how they resolved their differences. I could also attend debates. At that time, there were countries like Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Salvador, Nicaragua, Angola and South Africa that were fighting for liberation and others fighting for removing dictators. I used to follow all what was happening and exchanging ideas with different people. Then, when our struggle started, I participated.
QN: You have been participating in Rwanda’s leadership style for so long, what is the secret behind her development?
A: Actually it is not a secret. When you have good leadership wishing for development, good political line, others come straight away. We were blessed to have a good leadership and good political line from RPF but also working in agreement with other political parties.
QN: People are satisfied with Kagame’s leadership and others wish him to lead for life. Can we say that we will have another leader like him?
When you have a good leader capable in all things, you can’t identify others. But as he will not lead for life, there are others unknown who are capable.
But, it doesn’t matter if they cannot be like him, but, at least there should be many others with capabilities that can work and continue well with national development programs. But we never know there might be others capable like him, but had no opportunity to showcase their potentials.
The main thing is to empower institutions with devoted leaders. Although they could not be good as the previous one, they continue to collaborate until they succeed. When you are lucky, you can get a leader with same qualities as his, but if they are contrary, you can have good institutions and things continue.
QN: Based on history, some people say that Rwanda needs a leader with military background…
A: Usually there are civil discipline and army discipline. Our soldiers have both.
All Rwanda soldiers have civil discipline, wish for development and good politics but retain army discipline. Ours have both. Our cadres are ambitious but have no army discipline.
QN: If Kagame had refused to continue to lead, was RPF prepared for another candidate?
A: Do you think that in millions of RPF members we can fail to choose a candidate? If other political parties got candidates, why not RPF? There are many people who can provide their candidacy but when you have a good leader, you cannot let him go.
QN: Which role can you say other political parties are playing in Rwanda’s leadership?
A: I don’t judge political parties on what they should do…. So, why do we have multi-party politics? It is because all people should not have common understanding, though you can all have one vision which is development.
For Rwanda, people compete during the elections and know that there is a forum to bring them together in building the nation, than raising conflicts. You share leadership.
For a party like RPF we can’t go beyond 50% in government positions and other parties occupy the rest.
QN: What do you think about foreigners who claim that Rwanda does not give space for opposition?
A: Did they lose space? During Twagiramungu’s (Former Prime Minister) period, he came saying that he was opposing, he competed and failed; and others followed suit. All that is due to two things.
First of all they want us to work as they do, that is their mistake, thinking that we should work like them. The second is that they don’t want to wait until they see how we work and tell us where we are wrong or right. They should see whether everyone has the right to compete.
As you have witnessed, the mayors who wanted to obstruct a candidate during the electoral race were arrested because they had no right to prevent him from expressing himself.
QN: In your political career, what made you spend sleepless nights?
A: There are many things which made me spend sleepless nights; the first in all is losing our army commander during the launch of RPA struggle. But, when the genocide started, I also deeply lost sleep.
We were wondering; we came in Rwanda to fight and end injustice. People were dying as a result of injustice. After the liberation struggle, some people celebrated.
For us, we didn’t celebrate because we ended the war with dead bodies scattered all around the country; many had fled to DRC, instead of staying and we build the nation. When you see that all things had been destroyed and national coffers had nothing, you could not be happy.
I became happy afterwards when leaders started to work, built the foundations and gained dignity. But, economic struggle is ongoing.
QN: Rwanda’s liberation struggle started in Uganda when both countries were friendly, but today there are problems in diplomatic relations. What do you think is behind?
Maybe Ugandans thought that as we came from there, they should continue to lead and direct us yet we did not need to be led by them.
They say that we depended on them during the liberation struggle, but we fought for ourselves. We supported them more than they supported us. Much as they supported us, today we should have our independence.
When they see how our things went well while theirs are well too but not as good as we do, this make them feel jealousy.
It is small things that arise, whether from that jealous and these factors that they wish to be ahead of us and our haters use such gaps and want to fight us. The likes of Kayumba’s RNC and French profit from that gap. We don’t need things that can cause political catastrophes. But such things are there.
QN: There are RPF members who divert from party objectives and President Kagame talked about them recently, what do you think is the cause?
A: When we were fighting, we had the the zeal of liberating our country, but maybe some of our colleagues knew that they were going to liberate themselves not others. They thought that there were going to serve themselves than serving others or the country.
Those diverting, are those who want to serve themselves before serving people.
QN: What do you say about different religions being established everyday?
A: I wish the more they augment, the more sins would reduce… if they Pray one God, for me if churches were like four or five, they would be enough. But, now you find more than 30 churches in one sector. You find between 30 and 25 in a sector without a doctor or an engineer.
It is their right to form these churches but they would be regulated so that they don’t hamper political serenity.
QN: What is your church?
A: I don’t have a church. As the God is everywhere why do we need to go to church? I usually tell priests that westerners took God from homes to Churches. For Rwandans, God used to be in everyone’s home, but it was taken to Churches.
When there is marriage to attend I go to Churches and for burial the same in order to respect rituals. I was born in a Catholic family and used to participate in church services and had some responsibilities. In Uganda when I was 20 years I started to question them.
QN: What kind of Rwanda do you wish?
A: When a Rwandan is able to find meals and eat three times a day, access to education in all levels, access to medication and get healthcare to all sicknesses and get money for everyday needs as well as savings.
QN: Migrants continue to be a problem and USA president Donald Trump recently used improper remarks reffering to African Countries. What will be the end of this problem?
A: Where is Trump’s origin? His family doesn’t originate from America. Migrants have been there all the time. In America there were white Indians, all these other white people came from other places.
Previously, westerners had stable economy and needed frica but because they, too, have many unemployed people, they don’t wish to accommodate more people. Even these people going in Europe are not poor, imagine how much it costs them to reach Libya. Crossing through the sea it requires them to pay $10,000. Don’t you know people who left banking jobs and other occupation in Rwanda and went to Canada?
QN: In Politics there is a time when a person goes to retirement, when do you expect yours?
A: In public services, I have gone beyond the timen when I was supposed to have been retired. But, in politics when you are an ambitious person, you don’t need to go to retirement. You retire when you are dead. You need to participate in public discussions, contributing ideas and handle problems.
I stood for country liberation which is a process with different phases. We are yet to reach there. Why do I retire when I’m still capable of working? But the government can say, ‘we don’t need to pay you, you are too old you should go’, there I can understand.
For me in politics I can stay unless people say they are tired of me. Even when they get tired of me, I can go in the village and continue working towards my targets which I’m yet to complete. They are stopped by death. I don’t expect to retire unless I’m sick. Why should I retire? An ambitious person doesn’t retire, he dies.
QN: In Rwanda, there are many sports clubs and games. Which team do you support?
A:We are among founders of APR FC during the liberation struggle, so it is mine. But, when one of local team is outside the country, I support it. Be APR FC, Rayon Sports and Kiyovu because they represent the country.
QN: What about Foreign champions?
A: I used to support Liverpool in 1974 but when it was suspended for four years after their hooligans killed over 130 in Belgium, I started to support Manchester United till now.
I am also a fan of FC Barcelona because I like their game setting, they play well. In countries I like Brazil as they play like Barcelona and sometimes Germany.
QN: Which players do you like in those teams?
A: There is no player who attracted me the most in Manchester United though I support them. I liked Keegan but today I like Lionel Messi of Barcelona.
QN: Which kind of music do you like?
A: When I was young, I liked Rock&Roll, in songs like Tist, Reggae of Bob Marley but I got old I like these Cecile Kayirebwa which are soft.
QN: Where do you like to go for vacation?
All of Rwanda is good. Whenever I reach and find a good place, I sit and stare. I can even sit on the veranda of my house and see the beauty of Kigali.
QN: How do you spend your day when you are not at work?
A: Sometimes I read a book, when I don’t have a book I use my phone internet, watch a movie or TV news. In the past I used to play Basketball and Volleyball. I have a bicycle at home, when I wake early in the morning I ride for ten minutes.
QN: Have you written any book?
A: I have not written any book.
QN: As we wind up our discussion, some people say that you have over 100 grandchildren and over 50 children,…
It is a lie, I have one biological child, I adopted others after the genocide. I adopted many children after the genocide. As a leader, you need to be a role model to others, as we were encouraging people to adopt children, we had also to do the same.
Later I had more than 30 people in my home, most of them have completed studies, and some of them are married. Today I have one child whom I adopted when he was a one month baby.
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